About this Show

[untitled]

NETWORK

DURATION
00:30:00

RATING

SCANNED IN
San Francisco, CA, USA

SOURCE
Comcast Cable

TUNER
Channel 89 (615 MHz)

VIDEO CODEC
mpeg2video

AUDIO CODEC
ac3

PIXEL WIDTH
528

PIXEL HEIGHT
480

TOPIC FREQUENCY

Borden 2, Ms. Rodgers 1, Amy Rodgers 1, Sugaya 1, Booker T. 1, Ms. Hester 1, Mr. Wyco 1, Booker T. Washington 1, Ann Marie 1, Antonini 1, Wu 1, Cetera 1, Washington 1, State C-e-q-a Law 1, Bifurcating 1, Rec 1, Us 1, Wiener 1, Dpw 1, Mr. Rodgers 1,
Borrow a DVD
of this show
  SFGTV    [untitled]  

    December 1, 2012
    1:30 - 2:00am PST  

1:30am
recommendation, you know, i think there is a lot to be said about having a window of appeal. but why didn't we limit it to planning or building related discretionary permit? i think by far we have the biggest notice requirement of other agencies. it's a c-e-q-a appeal, i think it would be related to planning or building permits. did we think about that when you were reviewing the legislation in terms of if you're going to choose a discretionary action as the trigger that it would be a planning or building permit only as opposed to, you know, kind of these ancillary permits? >> well, i don't think that the other permits are ancillary. in fact, maybe the concerns have been voiced here about those permits that are issued by other agencies where the notice is lesser bust. one of the things that's not really come out explicitly in this discussion is, and i think it's unlikely that the notice
1:31am
provisions will adversely affect how the planning department does things basically we'll send out a dr, 311 notice, a notice before this body, all of those notices, up until the point that action that triggers c-e-q-a review will say x has been [speaker not understood] in term of environmental review. at this hearing or some subsequent hearing, there could be an action that would trigger a c-e-q-a review period. if you have c-e-q-a concerns, contact planning department, rec, park, whoever, and that department has an obligation to notify those people. and the thing i think has not come out at all in this discussion so far is if there isn't notice, then none of the streamlined process is triggered. similarly -- >> so, there is no notice, there is no streamline. >> in the legislation as it's written right now, there is a
1:32am
20-day period for exercising appeals if you have notice. there is a 30-day period if there isn't notice. a number of people architect heritage has expressed concerns. if there isn't notice, why is 10 days more adequate? i think that's a fair question. you know, again, reminder that there is no notice requirement in c-e-q-a for exemptions period under c-e-q-a for any kind of c-e-q-a action. there is a default of six months that has nothing to do with notice. >> right. >> so, that is something i think is, you know, a legitimate concern as to what is, should it be 30 days, should it be something else, should it be if you don't provide notice you default to the sachs statutory limitations of six months. that's up to the guidance that you and others provide and the supervisor and the board's judgment. >> and i guess my question, though, then, so just kind of playing this out.
1:33am
say my project is a r, i'm going to use a dr as an example. part of my project would require me to remove a tree and put in two knew trees and then to do my edition. * new trees first i'd go to dpw, go get my tree permit that nobody is paying attention. that action happened. then it comes to the planning commission. is it now that they could not file a c-e-q-a appeal because they didn't file it on the tree permit? >> again, assuming the tree permit is a discretionary action, we did a cad ex for it, the cad ex would only apply to the action if that's the only action that we had in place -- [multiple voices] >> if the information that we acted on was incomplete and there was a change to the project or further development of the project that changed those conditions, go back to go here. essentially the c-e-q-a clearance is on what we know
1:34am
and what we address. if we didn't address an aspect of the project because it wasn't put before us, then that becomes a new discretionary action subject to new environmental review subject to new appeals. i guess, i would imagine people would give the whole project -- i do think we're shortening the window. i guess the question is, then, what is the process currently? like how someone related a story about trying to get to the planner and the planner was on vacation. is the only way that you can file an appeal is to reach the planner for the project? is there a website, can you go to the department? i don't know because i've never filed an appeal. maybe you could eliminate -- >> appeals for exemptions are solely to the board of supervisors. i was the person on vacation, i take a vacation once a year. >> i'm not criticizing you taking a vacation. [multiple voices] >> there was a notice on my e-mail, a notice on my phone
1:35am
message that says who can be reached in the case of this question. the person obviously didn't bother to follow-up on that. in the case the information she actually figured out is true, it wasn't right for an appeal because there is no c-e-q-a document had been prepared and there was no appeal that could have been filed at that time. >> right. i mean, i guess -- so, i could go to the planning department, file an appeal. there is a process for doing that, go to the website. >> the appeal, e-i-rs -- negative declaration appeals, choose to appeal [speaker not understood], choose to appeal to the board. exemptions are only to the board. >> okay. thank you for the -- answering the question. i think that there are a lot of great procedural changes and codificationses that the legislation does that's really -- that need to be done. i think that that's very true. i think the challenge is that there are some details related
1:36am
to what that mean when you start talking about discretionary actions and how one discretionary action, do people game the system and get a discretionary action, a place where they're left notice, no one is paying attention so they can get -- have an easier time in other places. i think that is problematic. i also think the appeals window the 10 days, 20 days, 30 days, 30 days with no notice, 20 days with some notice, is also somewhat problematic. those seem to be the two biggest issues that everybody is touching on. there is another thing about the fair argument which i don't see -- i can't find that language in the legislation because i'm not going to address it. it sounds like there's legal ramifications for even trying to change that wouldn't even -- beyond our concerns. but i think that there are real concerns about looking at what you would describe as the first discretionary action or what
1:37am
you would describe as discretionary actions. i also think that there is, you know, looking at what is an appropriate appeal window based upon those actions make sense. there is an issue, ms. hester acknowledged there is an issue with c-e-q-a. i think that's been frustrating for a lot of people because c-e-q-a provides information. it doesn't say, a project is good or a project is bad. it is a way of decision-makers having information to determine whether or not they want to move forward with the project. in pretty much even on projects that people don't agree with the c-e-q-a document, it outlines that there are significant unavoidable impacts to whatever, you know. and you may agree that the statement of overriding consideration if you're talking about an e-i-r are great or not. in the areas of cad ex and negative declarations, i think that is an area where there is a bit of abuse because a lot of
1:38am
times we're talking about single-family homes, projects. when you're talking about cad x's, categorical exemption, i.e., a house becoming a house or a house expanding a house, that's the kind of cases you're talking about when you're talking about a cad goerth cat exemption. a negative declaration is usually -- it can be a similar situation but there's a little more complication because there's historic resource or historic district involved. and i think that we have seen that people don't like a project, so they use c-e-q-a as the thing in the process. and it's hard because when people do that, it destroys the integrity of c-e-q-a in the sense that there are legitimate environmental concerns. projects like treasure island and the shipyard, they're truly environmental concerns and real issues there that c-e-q-a deals with. a lot of the socioeconomic policy sort of issues and questions that we have and concerns, c-e-q-a is not designed to deal with that and that's a whole 'nother conversation about the general plan and how we implement that
1:39am
and how we look at how we make our decisions. but that is those are not c-e-q-a issues and i think they often get commingled here when we're having the conversation. i think it is regrettable that there wasn't dialogue because one of the reasons we had an issue earlier that we didn't have dialogue with the community before the introduction of the legislation because of thing that create an add months fear of distrust so that it's even hard for people to acknowledge that things that actually might be useful in the legislation, which there are some procedural outlines that do make a lot of sense that were put in the legislation. but there are other questions and challenges that need to be answered and looked at because i do think the law of unintended consequences is that people are concerned about. and i know that we're not going to resolve those issues here today. and i guess it's my advice to
1:40am
the supervisor would be really to spend some time looking at this issue around discretionary permits, the discretionary actions and appeals and triggers around that. and also around the window of appeals. and also notice. i actually don't like the reduction in notice for projects over 5 acres. we were talking about western soma earlier and the fact that the whole [speaker not understood] of the city being rezoned and people can be completely unaware that their properties, the nature of the zoning of their properties is changing that could be negative. i don't think is a good thing. * swath i actually think that provision is problematic in this legislation. i'm generally supportive of reform and i'd like to see some reform because we have booker t. washington, other cases we have that there has been c-e-q-a abuse and the challenge that you do have is not only that you have the process of the city, but booker t. washington which we voted on a year and a half ago is still being litigated in the courts. so, you know, people can do c-e-q-a here, but they do c-e-q-a in the court. there is a challenge when
1:41am
people are he opposed to projects and they use c-e-q-a as the way to poe pose those projects. i wish there were a way to better separate those issues out from, you know legitimate environmental concerns. * but i don't think anyone is here wanting to weaken, talk about lessen the protections that we have because i think that everyone would recognize c-e-q-a has been valuable in decision-making process. all the cases people talk about c-e-q-a saved houses or properties, et cetera, no one is looking to change that. i think i know that we're all looking for making the process work better for everyone involved and to be more transparent. and, so, i would just say also with staff in looking at the appellate process, how that can be outlined better on our website if people could apply, hit a button to appeal something on the website. i think, yes, people should have to provide more information up front as to what some of their arguments are. but, you know, i think it is a little bit onerous what the scheduling deadlines to have
1:42am
people provide some of the level of detail we're asking for at this point. >> if i could speak to a couple things just to clarify. the five acre provision only applies to plans. and, again, that's basically a policy call for whoever wants to make recommendations here. that was in all the versions of the last legislation including all the permutations that happened after it went through the planning commission and is basically a trade-off, is saying that every single parcel gets notice knowing that notice when most of those parcels are occupied by renters and most of that mail gets returned as undelivered, is that a superior notice? then sending notice to everybody who participated in the planning process for a number of years, and that includes renters, includes whoever had any participation, left any kind of way of being contacted, you know, that's the trade-off there. which is more effective notice. >> i would just say if you're
1:43am
going to choose a notice of acceptance, you would look at maybe if the property owner's property would actually be rezoned, right? if i'm in a residential district rh1 or whatever and my property is not going to be rezoned anything different, maybe this is more general notice i would get. if i'm in a property where i'm going to become legal nonconforming or property is being up zoned or down zoned, that's more my concern. so, how do we -- i'm not saying -- that should be fairly easy to separate out. i just think notice in terms of how it affects people directly and how you inform them would be -- >> i guess just two other points, the main points you made. in terms of this first discretionary action, someone who plays games, hides the ball does it at their own peril. if they don't give us the project in its entirety, they are going to be recycling through the process. and if somehow they slip through the cracks of the process, they are going to lose in court because they're doing piece metionv of the project
1:44am
and they're not giving us the entire of the project. piecemealing. * [speaker not understood], in this is where i agree with a number of the speakers, this city doesn't have the authority to change the legal standard review. >> and i'm not arguing about that, no. i wasn't arguing about that. in terms of discretionary action, if that's going to stay in the legislation, i would prefer that discretionary's planning or building department action because i think that those are the areas where the notice happens, building permits or planning permits. >> commissioner antonini. >> thank you, mr. wyco. you might as well come back up again. sorry. i have a question. my questions revolve mostly around situations that commissioner borden was dealing with, and these are permits. someone gets a permit to make changes to their house or some sort of thing that's over the counter and they don't need to
1:45am
go through process. but there is an environmental cad ex to this as there is to almost anything. and i guess right now i'm hearing there is no limit or a six-month statutory limit to an appeal of a cad ex on this type of project. what is the number on that? >> there is no requirement for notice under state law. there are a number of notice provisions that are in existing article and there are supplemental notices like posting on website that we do now. but basically whether you get that notice or whether you don't, you need to exercise your rights within six months. that's how c-e-q-a is structured. >> well, this i think is something that supervisor is trying to deal with and it's a little unrealistic. and it happens, i've heard of many instances where projects are approved. the project sponsor begins, has the contractor, is almost starting to do work sometimes. and, you know, during that period of time all of a sudden
1:46am
an appeal pops up and it has to be heard and nothing can be done any further until the appeal is done. i think that that window is too long. perhaps 20 days is too short. but i mean, i think that, you know, there is some appeal in the range of a month or something like that would be a realistic one in my mind that, you know, and also increasing noticing as you've spoken about, making notice as more universal as possible without necessarily sending to all the property owners, but on the web. also some sort of public notice in a very visible place, not in the fine print in the examiner, but someplace that would be easily noticed by people that would be looking for things that may be happening in their -- or on the planning commission now has e-mail, websites and things that we might make available to the public in that way. those are the kind of things i'm thinking about.
1:47am
so, thank you. i have a few other comments. the other thing, i think this is good legislation. i think it needs a little fine tuning, but a lot of the comments we had dealt with, things that are not part of the legislation. ms. rodgers, correct me if i'm wrong, but i have been hearing from staff and hearing from everyone that nobody is abridging the rights of the public to the appeal process that exists now particularly in regards to the projects we most normally see here which involve our decisions and almost always involve, sometimes they're cad x's, but almost always negative declarations or e-i-rs. and the same process will be followed with a couple of modifications i believe that he did say where there is a board appeal of a c-e-q-a issue, and they're already having to take action in a mandatory way.
1:48am
they will couple the appeal with their action, which is efficient and just makes sense to me. it doesn't mean and the c-e-q-a appeal -- that would have to be heard first before the approval of the project, i would expect, just like we -- in order -- we cannot approve a project if we have not first approved the c-e-q-a part of it. re: good evening again, amy rodgers, planning staff. that is correct. it would be done similar to how the board has chosen to do things in the last year or so where they have actually called the two items, although they're listed separately project approval c-e-q-a appeal. * they call the projects together, combine public comment, combine staff presentations so it is covering the c-u appeal, he the c-e-q-a appeal, everything all at once. it would be similar. it would be one combined hearing, one opportunity for everybody.
1:49am
>> yeah, well, that makes sense to me rather than bifurcating it. oftentimes our hearings end up being that way, too. we may have separate comments, but almost always we have our environmental piece and the c-u or whatever the 309 is on the same day because we would rather get it done because oftentimes there have been cases where if it goes to the next day appeal is then filed and it means we're delayed months and months to move forward with the approval process. so, i think that generally there have been a lot of things that were voiced tonight, but i don't think a lot of them really deal with what's before us. there was this whole issue of substantial evidence and fair argument and that is part of state law if i'm not mistaken. that can't be changed. we're not saying it's going to be different. that isn't part of the legislation. that has nothing to do with it. a few other points that i noted where we went through this
1:50am
entire process is i was on the commission long enough to be part of it before the state law came into effect on january 1st, 2003 that made the elected body of a particular county of the appellate body, there was a flood of appeals that happened after that. i think one of the speakers hit the nail on the head. on many of these projects, the appeals have nothing really to do with the environmental piece. they're using the piece because it's an attractive way to appeal. because, as you know, if an appeal is accepted by the board of supervisors, it only needs a simple majority. if they're going to override our approval of a project, then they need a super majority to do so on a c-u or 309. so, it's the lower hanging fruit and that's not part of this legislation, but i'd like to see it examined if every county has to actually have that kind of a bar. and if we could make it a super
1:51am
majority, you'd probably see a lot fewer c-e-q-a appeals. but that's something that we'd have to look at in state c-e-q-a law. but, you know, and it's much more devastating when a huge e-i-r has been filed. it's always a mystery to me during my time on the commission, first couple of years, why are these people challenging the e-i-r? there is a huge document. it's very comprehensive. it's accurate. it's adequate. it's complete. and they're picking little parts of it. because that's where they want to be able to start the project as opposed to having to vote on the project itself. many times as one speaker pointed out, there are corollary issues that are behind the appeal rather than just environmental things. that's not what's before us today. but i think supervisor wiener has dealt more with technical process problems and i think he's identified a lot of them here. and you know, my only concerns would be with the two things
1:52am
were brought up by supervisor borden, would be there should be an appeal period of time and it should be a definite appeal period whether it's 30 days, you know. i don't think it should be too much more than that. but i think there has to be really firm moves towards as much notice as possible that the public can -- who is paying attention can be expected to see. and they should make that appeal in a timely manner rather than things going on. and there have been situations where it seems to have dragged on for years, although i hear there's a statutory six months period of time. but sometimes there have been some multiple appeals because they appeal it. * at the planning commission and then at the beale and the board of supervisors. there's nothing we can stop. i'd like to hear what the other commissioners have to say. i think there is a lot of potential and it should be
1:53am
moved forward with those admonitions we have spoken about. >> commissioner wu. >> thank you. so, on a couple topics that we've already talked about, i think that there definitely was a lack of process. i think this is something the department struggles with on all legislation. i know that it's a very tall order to hold community meetings on every piece of legislation, especially as the board of supervisors is suggesting more and more legislation these days. but i also feel like we wouldn't have had this reaction if there were some more outreach. i would encourage all of the supervisor offices to think about that a little bit more. on the question of setting a time frame for appeals and emotionses on the negative declarations, i do feel like that sets a process up more clear. i think that 30 days is probably more reasonable for the case in which there was notice, but i think in the case in which there wasn't notice it
1:54am
should revert back to i can i think it was either six months or whatever it is currently. * if there is no notice, we are in a situation where people don't know they have to appeal. i wanted to ask some clarifying questions mr. rodgers, if i could ask on the board of supervisors as the c-e-q-a sort of decider, if the legislation were to go through, does it mean the decision would go through the land use committee and no public hearing at the full board? and is that different than today? >> if the board needs to hear the entitlement, they typically hear planning entitlements at the land use committee. it is not an approval but a recommendation. a recommendation for approval. and it typically goes to the full board. in this case and also as the board procedures there's no public comment typically at the
1:55am
full board, but for appeals. so, if this were to go through, i believe what would typically happen would be the board could have a decision that they could make -- take all the public comment for the public at the committee level or the board sits as a committee as a whole at the full board. so, they could also choose to -- the committee could not hear it at all and the full board could hear its sitting as a committee. the full board as a whole [speaker not understood]. >> thank you. i think that is an important distinction and disdifference to what it is today and what it might be in the future. it is not for us to decide, i think it is for the board to decide. i just wanted to highlight that. and then i have another set of questions on standing, which is new to me so you have to bear with me. so, it seems like today any person can appeal either an exemption or a neglect derek deck. but what is proposed for the future is for the exemption, it's any person who has objected to the exemption.
1:56am
* negative declaration and it's not clear to me where in the process you object in the first place. and then for the negative declaration, it's any person who appealed -- well, maybe i should ask for your clarification. >> bill wyco again. c-e-q-a and i think environmental laws in general i think have the broadest standing provisions of any laws in the country in the state. you generally have standing irrespective of being affected. i know the appeal letter always say [speaker not understood] i represent x thousand people. in reality you can represent yourself and you have standing. you don't have to be next door to them. you just have to raise an objection. in terms of the procedural things that are spelled out here, they are consistent with what c-e-q-a establishes normal due process in the united states establishes, if you want to exercise rights. you have kind of -- you need to exercise your rights and if you
1:57am
don't raise an objection, you know, there's kind of a process of winnowing, if you will. this is maybe something the city attorney could address better than me. essentially you have -- standing really isn't the issue. standing is if you don't raise an objection, you don't get to show up at the last hour and say, i appeal, because -- this is again, not particularly an exemption situation. it is the last hour -- it's the first hour. but in the case of an e-i-r, if you haven't commented, then you don't get to appeal. >> right. it's clear to me what it is on an e-i-r. if you could give an example what it would mean on a categorical exemption. >> making a categorical exemption it doesn't apply because, again, the first -- the last hour and the first hour, are identical. >> that was my question. and on a negative declaration, what would that mean? >> depends on whether you leave it the way it is now, which ah
1:58am
extensively says, we publish a document on the face of a document. if you wish to raise concerns or wish to appeal, contact the affected planner within 20 days, 30 days if there is state agency involved. and if there is an appeal, then it's calendared here and you hear it and then there is potential to subsequently appeal to the board. however, if someone chooses not to take what this says, which is you have 20 days to appeal and to take it to the planning commission, they can just ignore that and then wait until there is a entitlement action or permitting action and take it to the board directly. so, under this legislation it would be that you would have to take it to the commission first and then there would be a triggering action associated with the appeal. the permit that would then go to the board. >> okay, thank you. >> commissioner sugaya. >> thanks.
1:59am
i have a bunch of disjointed comments here. first of all, i'd like to thank ann marie for responding to some questions that i had with respect to the table we have here -- i asked you first. i know we're going to get additional information with respect to this in terms of some more timelines is what i'm looking for. i also like to thank staff for providing some responses to all of the letters, the fine questions that were previously submitted and it's also in the matrix in our documents. that said, i think in just quickly looking over the number of why i asked ann marie how many exemptions, e-i-rs, negative declarations have been processed by the